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| Larry Niven Discussion board for the writings of Larry Niven. |
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| | #1 (permalink) |
| Wherever I Am, I'm There Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Greater London
Posts: 11,443
| THIS IS SCIENCE FICTION: In the Known Space Books in the 22nd Century the biggest problem for the United Nations World Government is the Organ bank problem. The Earths population is huge, people live well over 100 years and the birth rate has also fallen, cures for diseases and other medical advances have continued. The demand for organs and limbs for use in spare part surgery becomes so acute that people are murdered and body parts are stolen to order. It is the job of the UN Police force, the ARM to control this. Eventually criminals are executed and used for transplants, for increasingly minor offences. Execution for transplants makes jails obsolete. THIS IS THE YEAR 2001, TODAY: A boy in Russia is narrowly saved from being sold by his aunt, to be murdered, and his organs used for transplants. (Sky News, CNN) ![]() During the Chinese New Year celebrations each year, large numbers of criminals are executed, their bodies have parts removed and sold in local hospitals for operations. People travel from all over Asia to China to have these operations. (BBC) ![]() Alder Hey and Birmingham Childrens Hospitals in Britain have removed Thymus glands from live children during Heart operations and given them, without consent, to pharmacutical companies, in return for "donations". (BBC and all British National Newspapers) ![]() British Government Minister Alan Milburn to make a statement that this has been common practice in most NHS hospitals but that the law will be tightened to ensure consent. Tissue Banks in USA that were once local non-profit organizations have been turned into billion dollar corporations. Although selling tissue is against the law ie. veins, bones, skin and blood, unlike lifesaving organ donations, donations of tissue are not tightly regulated. Companies are allowed to charge high service fees for collecting, processing, administration and shipping the tissue instead of for the tissue itself. (CBS news) The illegal trade in cloned body parts and genetically engineered children has been identified by an elite British police squad as a future market for organised crime. Robert Hall, the head of analysis at a research unit of the National Criminal Intelligence Service, said "Genetic commerce has a very lucrative potencial not only for the scientists but for the unscrupulous practitioner or criminal who wishes to make easy money. At its simplest there is the organised criminal who sells illegally aquired, genetically engineered body parts. At the more complex, there is the bogus agent offering gene therepy to the unwary or desperate parent, or even customizing genetic changes into a newly conceived child. (Medicalpost.com) One human body can be worth $100,000 in parts. The population is aging, demand is steadily increasing to repair the bodies of baby boomers. Families that are happy to donate organs are rarely told and probably never imagine that tissue can also be processed into collagen for wrinkle removal, lip enhancements and other cosmetic procedures. By 2020, 95% of human body parts could be replaceable by laboratory-grown organs. It is possible, that it is only the fear of HIV , human BSE and other infections, which has been the break on the growth of this industry. SO WHAT WILL THE FUTURE REALLY BE LIKE? Worrying Stuff? Will Genetic Engineering and Cloning Technology prevent a widespread organ bank problem in the future? There are some equal moral objections here as well: Do we really want to grow a cloned foetus of ourselves to use when we get ill? (Its like keeping an old wreck of a car in your garage and stripping it down for parts.) ![]() (Where is 'Igor' when you need him?) Should it only be the rich that can afford to do this, and hide away some poorer, more unhealthy copy of themselves, to raid for parts in a modern-day version of "The Picture of Dorien Grey"? (Oscar Wilde) Do we really want factories full of cultured organs growing in vats and testubes? ![]() Do we want to live in a world where you are mugged on a street corner for your liver and kidneys? ![]() (This idea from alt.bio.hackers) What about a large corporation secretly testing it's workers in some third world country for HLA (Human Leukocyte antigens - the so called genetic fingerprints)? They permit only the tissue type matches they need to stay alive and sacrifice them as needed. All you require is a large workforce, a poor country with a dictatorship and roving death squads, a secret operating theatre, a con game to extort money from the recipients without it getting publicized. Plenty of countries to choose from there, and it could all be achieved by an organized crime syndicate, a secret government agency or a multinational company. Many people who want to see more lives saved by transplants think this shouldn't be discussed. They want to see a regulated open free market for body parts. Others also want more transplants, but not only for the rich, while the poor get sicker. Should transplant organs and tissues only be given as charitable donations after consent? Or should dead bodies be seen as a parts locker, and a free market opened up? WHAT DO YOU THINK? The future is already here! Read "The Patchwork Girl", "The long ARM of Gil Hamilton", "A gift from Earth" and other tales of Known Space by Larry Niven. ![]() Also Philip K Dick's "We can Build You" and other stories concerning Artiforgs (Artifical Organs). ![]() Also Robin Cook's "Coma" is relevant. [Edited by david676 on 01-30-2001 at 10:13 AM] |
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| | #2 (permalink) |
| System Lord of ASciFi.com Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,810
| yup.. scarry stuff. I read one of Robin Cook's books about this but i don't think it was Coma, perhaps there is another one he deals in it as well. Lots of the serialised tv shows seem to pick up on the theme of chinese organ systems every once in a while (not quite sure why it is chinese) i saw one where (this if fiction remember) where a group of people went to a meeting, all got paid $x and then a a card was drawn to see who would have their y organ removed, eyes, kidneys etc... Yes it is a problem and will be for next 50 years or so but i don't think after that. Organ generation to order is not something i see in any way unlikely. The igor in your basement (ever read chromoson 6 by robin cook.. that is a nice one, using chimps as your surrogate donar etc.. read it) won't be necessary, eyes etc grown in vats. Ethically i don't see a problem. What is the difference between growing an eye and a skin culture? The "cost" is more likely to be a problem, should only rich people be able to replace their hearts when they get old? i doubt it is something that will be particularly cheap to do when it comes? in the US this dosen't appear to be a large concern with your massive comercalisation of health system but some of the remaining more socialist (well not socialist but more that way) systems would certainly have more problems with refusing to do it if it was possible because it is too expensive. We shall see what will happen but this is one of certainly the most major bio-ethical problems coming up alongsite ethuanasia, genetic engineering (germline in particular), age extension drugs (when not if) etc. |
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| Wherever I Am, I'm There Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Greater London
Posts: 11,443
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| Wherever I Am, I'm There Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Greater London
Posts: 11,443
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| | #5 (permalink) | |
| Wherever I Am, I'm There Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Greater London
Posts: 11,443
| Re: Organleggers! (Larry Niven) I've been collecting these stories over a period of time, this is on AOL news today: Quote:
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| | #6 (permalink) |
| Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Texas
Posts: 8,635
| Re: Organleggers! (Larry Niven) This is not (quite) the same as some of the above, but ... Poor Pakistanis donate kidneys for money - Yahoo! News |
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| | #7 (permalink) | |
| Wherever I Am, I'm There Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Greater London
Posts: 11,443
| Re: Organleggers! (Larry Niven) All part of the same trend. Now you can get a fast track visa to the west if you donate... Quote:
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| | #8 (permalink) |
| Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Texas
Posts: 8,635
| Re: Organleggers! (Larry Niven) At this point, I'm not sure whether Niven would be sitting there with a death's-head grin drinking himself into a coma, or off in a corner, weeping..... "Science fiction is futuristic, far-out, escapist nonsense!" ... Right....... |
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| | #9 (permalink) | |
| Wherever I Am, I'm There Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Greater London
Posts: 11,443
| Re: Organleggers! (Larry Niven) This is one of todays headlines... Quote:
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| | #10 (permalink) |
| Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Texas
Posts: 8,635
| Re: Organleggers! (Larry Niven) A pm from Pyan bumped my fading memory, reminding me that I'd meant to post on this back when you put it up, Dave.... I've heard snippets of stories over the last few months of this nature, but not seen anything with this much detail. And I must ask: Is it any surprise that there's such a practice burgeoning? With so many people looking at any way at all to support and improve matters for their families (unaware or unheeding of the fact that such measures are only temporary and they will end up in an even worse situation down the line because of such actions), so many people so far below the poverty level in so many countries, the exponential growth of the population over the last 50 years, etc., etc. ... is it any wonder that we're seeing such a thing becoming viewed as a viable way of making it out from under? And then there are the other stories, about organs being removed from prisoners, etc. The only way out of this I see is to develop both artificial organs and to continue searching for both genetic solutions and the cloning of organs (with genetic faults rectified). But that is costly, and takes time. In the interim, I'm very much afraid we are going to see things approach even closer to the scenario in "The Jigsaw Man" before we see anything genuinely effective done to stop it, or see the people who are most likely to suffer from such practices (the poor, the disenfranchised) have even an inkling of how much worse off they'll be ... at least, enough to overcome their need to provide for those they love ... or for themselves, for that matter..... |
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| | #11 (permalink) |
| Wherever I Am, I'm There Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Greater London
Posts: 11,443
| Re: Organleggers! (Larry Niven) I think it makes a good case for why stem cell research, and cloning, and all those technologies that can be challenged ethically should actually be allowed. Surely, they are the lesser of two evils. And an organ that exactly matches you genetically is preferable to someone elses. |
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| | #12 (permalink) | |
| Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Texas
Posts: 8,635
| Re: Organleggers! (Larry Niven) And now we're seeing some of the fallout of this on the entire process of donations: Human organ trafficking threatens donation schemes - Yahoo! News Quote:
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| | #13 (permalink) |
| Wherever I Am, I'm There Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Greater London
Posts: 11,443
| Re: Organleggers! (Larry Niven) I do carry an organ donor card myself, and I've also given blood (which is still donated free in the UK) about 26 times. On my donor card I cross out the part that says "or any part of my body can be used for the treatment of others." I'm quite happy to know that my "kidneys, corneas, heart, lungs, liver and pancreas" will go to help someone else. My brother's organs all went to help different people after he died, and it somehow makes his death a little less senseless to know that. However, I also once lived with medical students for a year. I know that they took skulls home on the buses, and I heard other stories involving cadavers. I'm just not ready to let people do anything they want with my corpse. If the market model was introduced, I would certainly tear up my donor card as I would be against anyone making money from my body parts. Unfortunately, as Larry Niven predicted, supplies cannot expand to meet the demand under the present circumstances. The hope is that we can artificially grow organs and tissue as I said in my first post, but there will still always be a haves and have nots scenario due to tissue typing and the costs. It will be a case of the genetic discrimination we discussed in the other thread. http://www.chronicles-network.com/fo...imination.html Last edited by Dave; 3rd April 2007 at 05:48 PM. |
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| | #14 (permalink) |
| Dark Lord Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Falkirk
Posts: 574
| Re: Organleggers! (Larry Niven) Hello Just noticed on the news last couple of days, a research team has succesfully grown a part for a heart from stem cells they think that his therapy could be used within three years. I suspect this wont be the end of organlegging, it will be going on for some time to come but as this therapy becomes cheaper. I wonder if were going to be seeing wireheads next! |
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| | #15 (permalink) | |
| Wherever I Am, I'm There Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Greater London
Posts: 11,443
| Re: Organleggers! (Larry Niven) Not unless the price of electricity falls ![]() Here is that news report: Heart tissue grown from stem cells Quote:
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